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charleyfarley 12:50 Thu Nov 2
⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

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........... V

London Stadium
Sun 12th Nov 14:00 GMT

VAR Peter Bankes

Michael Salisbury: (4) - 10 0




Areola, Coufal, Zouma ©, Aguerd, Emerson, Álvarez, Souček, Ward-Prowse, Paquetá, Kudus, Bowen
Subs: Fabiański (GK), Cresswell, Mavropanos, Kehrer, Ogbonna, Fornals, Benrahma, Ings, Antonio


Vlachodimos, Aina, Niakhaté, Murillo, Toffolo, Sangaré, Mangala, Domínguez, Gibbs-White ©, Awoniyi, Elanga
Subs: Turner (GK), Williams, Ayew, Wood, Yates, Aurier, Origi, Danilo, Boly




West Ham 17/20: Draw 13/5: Notts Forest 3/1


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fraser 3:02 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

OK vexed son but they're both central midfielders, the only distinction I was making was one drifts more to the left and one to the right...

Vexed 2:46 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

Oh dear Frasier son, you're all over the place. I'm essentially agreeing with you, but your list of reasoning was completely ill conceived horseshit. You managed to miss the point about Areola, which was actually agreeing with you, then you try to suggest one of Paq or JWP is a left sided player, which neither of them are. Oh dear. Have a rest, come back to it later when you've had some lunch or something.

fraser 2:39 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

Fancy comparing two players who SHOULD both play on the same area of the pitch just one right sided and one left.. Yep that's exactly the same as comparing them with a keeper..

Oh and it was only Willtell who compared them by saying JWP has been better for us this season than Paqueta..

fraser 2:35 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

Vexed - So you agree that only fans would find Paqueta more effective than JWP... Not professionals OK son :-)

Vexed 2:32 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

I must also state that it is pointless comparing two completely different players. You might as will throw in Areola's passing stats and then state he is a better option in midfield. It's dense.

Vexed 2:29 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

Fraser 12:31 Wed Nov 15

You been speaking to Niles about football again? Some utter garbage written there son.

Sir Alf 2:18 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

The problem with stats is that they are incomplete and don’t tell the whole story so as to speak. They also are just one guide as they’re are arguably “softer” attributes like vision and decision making and attitude that play a part in a players effectiveness. On the incomplete stars thing, they don’t include a key contribution to a goal that is not the direct assist. So JWP gets a higher rating for direct contributions but of all goals perhaps Paquetas role in picking a pass thru the press was instrumental. Same could be the case with JWP too but I think Paqueta is involved in a lot of better build up play whereas JWP is definitely the man for direct ( set piece ) goals. And another thing that’s hard to detect or measure is the presence of a player or his movement that creates the space for others even though he appears to have no involvement at all? And there are other factors and that can be the folly in over emphasising the stats.

My posts would be complete without my obsessive mention of Soucek. Now here a a player who has a fantastic atttude, team player etc but his stats and my eyes tell us he’s our biggest weakness in midfield if we want to get and keep the ball better.

Perhaps Moyes measures those “intangibles” I am boring on about above and perhaps the opposition seeing Soucek “beanpoling” around at 2 miles an hour has them in fits of laughter thus breaking their concentration and allowing us to get goals ? ;-).

Willtell 1:20 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

Iridescent one
Passing stats are not what we were discussing you buffoon

Willtell 1:17 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

Well yes I can see how you might draw that conclusion but it’s not the whole story is it?

Paqueta has unique skills that someone like Guardiola could add discipline to his play to cut out the faults. Moyes wouldn’t know where to start. However they didn’t buy him did they?

I’m not a particular fan of JWP but he’s keeping Moyes in a job at the moment. He was also priced at £80m as Southampton wanted to keep him because like Mark Noble, he isn’t spectacular. He’s very effective though and I don’t like it when fans diss him because he’s a Moyes favourite.

I prefer to think with a better manager we have a player that can add set piece skills to an attacking formation…

Eerie Descent 1:02 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

I like JWP, he's a good player, I'll start by saying that.

However, if you can't understand the nuance in why he'll have better passing stats than Paqueta, then you really are a fucking simpleton who's best off talking to the wife about football.

fraser 12:31 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

That's the difference between fans and professionals..
Hmmm yet JWP had only us after him for £30 million.
Yet Pep regarded as one of the best managers of all time, so surely a professional is happy to pay £85 million for Paqueta...

Brasil have given Paqueta over 40 caps yet JWP has 11 for England...

Oh and the professionals at our club were prepared to pay a lot more for Paqueta than they were for JWP.

Yep all of the above must be fans who think they know better than professionals.

Willtell 12:23 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

It’s really about a showman versus a competent player. We all want to see what Paqueta does next but he gives away too many goal opportunities by his fuck ups that get dismissed because he’s so pleasing to watch.

When a JWP or Soucek do the same they get slaughtered. That’s the difference between fans and professionals.

Lee Trundle 12:07 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

We just need Alex V to appear with his xG nonsense now.

fraser 12:05 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

Anyone that thinks JWP has more effect on our games hasn't been watching them.. Those stats below don't include tackles, interceptions etc ..

Which after 6 games Paqueta was ranked 1st as well as two others in the top 5 leagues in Europe, now the whole team has fallen off since then... But I can't believe anyone thinks he's less effective than JWP even though he's been played out of position a lot, which to be fair so has JWP, but the latter has definitely been the more invisible of the two during those games..

fraser 12:00 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

Paqueta has been less effective in the league than JWP... Blimey...

Willtell 11:57 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

If it's in The Athletic it must be true that Soucek has more passes go foward than JWP.

JWP in PL -
11 games; 2 goals; 5 assists; 90.5% av. pass completion; 2.5 av Key passes; 53 av passes per game

Paqueta in PL -
11 games; 2 goals; 1 assist; 76.4% av pass completion; 1.2 av key passes; 50.1 av passes per game

Manuel 11:51 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

Pretty much what I said and I wasn't aware of those stats. As I said he's OK and don't want to bash him too much (not that he comes on here) but when you watch us play you don't really notice him much until he starts trotting over for corners, and for a CM that is not good, he doesn't grab a game by the throat, he seems and looks a bit weak, like a public school boy. He needs to get more animated and fired up.

As a direct comparison I'd look at Connor Gallagher, he always seem to be around the play, on the ball, and is more of a threat in and around the box, and rightly so he is in the England quad ahead of JWP, IMO.

fraser 11:38 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

This article from the athletic disagrees.



"In many ways, Ward-Prowse was the perfect West Ham signing, but there’s one downside: he compounds their problems. In open play this season, he ranks below the Premier League central midfielder average for passing accuracy, progressive passing and progressive carrying, as well as tackling and defensive duel success.

Ward-Prowse had the most touches of any West Ham player against Forest (91) but was overly safe in possession — Paqueta, Alvarez and Soucek all had a higher proportion of their passes go forward. Paqueta and Kudus made more ball recoveries than him, and Soucek and Alvarez made more clearances.

For West Ham to control games, Ward-Prowse is not the right type of midfielder, and it is the reason that Gareth Southgate overlooks him for England, despite a lack of creative depth in that role/position. He has won just 11 caps since his senior debut six and a half years ago."

Willtell 11:09 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

I can't help but feel that some fans tend to be negative about our players. JWP is one of them. He's a very competent midfielder with an exceptional talent for talking set piece free kicks. To judge him as ordinary "without his set pieces" is just ridiculous.

Most agree that Paqueta is our most skilful player but comparing his effect on the team to JWP's shows that Paqueta is less effective in the PL so far.

If you judge players by how amusing they are to you then Paqueta wins every time. Judge them on how effective they are to the team and JWP wins every time...

fraser 9:37 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

I agree with Manuel and Exile, a very efficient player in open play, nothing game changing at all.

Manuel 3:31 Wed Nov 15
Re: ⚽ West Ham v Nottm Forest - Official Match Thread

I don't think it's a coincidence that the only PL club that made a bona fide move for him have a manager who sees set pieces as his best source of goals. Let's have it right, we bought him primarily for his set pieces. And while I'm at it I don't see why the outrage that he isn't in the England squad, he's not good enough for England. All that said, I'm happy to have him here.

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